Jewish Objection 1.11 Nazi Xians go to heaven Jews to hell

Michael Brown of ICN Ministries, born a Jew, but turned to Chrstianity during his youth. He has written many books trying to convince Jews to become Chrstians and many missionaries quote from him.

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Jewish Objection 1.11 Nazi Xians go to heaven Jews to hell

Postby Sophiee » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:41 pm

page 35

What would happen to a Nazi murderer who believed in J-sus before he died? Would he go to heaven, while the Jewish men, women and children he killed, many of whom were G-d fearing people, would go to hell?

Based on the teaching of the Hebrew Bible, if the Nazi could truly repent before he dieed, then G-d would accept him as righteous, but merely “believing” without true repentance is meaningless.


This one is particulary interesting following (as it does) 1.10 where Brown just told you that your wonderful grandmother who was loving and a good Jew is going to hell beause she doesn't believe in J-sus.

Now he tells us Nazis will go to heaven if they repent and turn to J-sus.

And people wonder why I don't want to be a Xian! This is a just, compassionate god as Brown just told us in 1.10???

So, what is it Dr. Brown – is it believing in J-sus that saves – or is it repentance (as the rabbis tell us)?

The question isn’t Nazis who realized their guilt and repented to G-d, but rather those who called themselves Xians their entire lives – went to Xian churches as they killed innocent women, children and old men – and continued on in their evil ways. Here are a few pictures for Dr. Brown of Xian Nazis in church:

Image

Here is Hitler leaving a Xian church. Do you suppose Brown thinks he repented and went to heaven since he was a Xian? Do you think Brown pictures my dearly departed mother as roasting in hell, good woman that she was?

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Nazis in church -- I suppose all of them are in Brown's version of heaven now?

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And lest some folk here say we're confusing Catholics with "real" Xians lets have a few quotes from Baptists who supported the Nazis:

If anyone can lay claim to G-d's help, then it is Hitler, for without G-d's benevolent fatherly hand, without his blessing, the nation would not be where it stands today. It is an unbelievable miracle that G-d has bestowed on our people." [Evangelical Minister Rust, in a speech to a mass meeting of German Chrstians on June 29, 1933 [Helmreich, Ernst Christian, "The German Churches Under Hitler," Wayne State University Press, 1979, p. 138]


Page 40:

If by “believing in J-sus” you simply mean, “believing that he is the L-rd and Savior,” then that Nazi would be judged for his sins and condemned to hell. If however, by “believing in J-sus” you mean putting his trust in the L-rd J-sus to cleanse him from his sin and guilt, repudiating his evil deeds with his whole heart and turning to G-d in true repentance asking for mercy and pardon, then he would be forgiven.”


So apparently in 1.10 believing in J-sus was the only way to be saved since you are a sinner by birth. Now in 1.11 you need to repent, sin no more, and put your whole heart in G-d (and J-sus). Hmmm. Sounds just like Judaism except for the J-sus part.

So why exactly do you need J-sus? If just believing in J-sus isn’t enough – and the Torah tells us that we merely need to repent, turn to G-d and be good people then what purpose does J-sus serve? Brown quotes 1 Kings 21:27-29, 2 Chronicles 33:6 and 9-13, as well as Ezekiel 18:30-32 and 33:11-16 all of which indeed tells us to repent, trust in G-d’s righteousness, etc. all without the need of demi-gods dying on crosses.

When juxtasuppsoed with the previous entry Brown's comments on who gets saved and who doesn't take on a very disgusting tone.
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Postby Sophiee » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:42 pm

Drashi said

IIRC, one of the Roman Emperors (maybe Constantine?) went on a killing and immorality binge a couple of days before his conversion, knowing that he would be forgiven. Could someone veryfy this

(Anja replied):

Yup. Constantine killed a couple of rivals for Emperor, but didn't stop there--wife, at least one of his kids, nephew, and I can't remember who all else--a lot of people, and in very sadistic ways.

He declared Christianity to be the new religion of the Empire, but he did not actually convert until he was on his deathbed--and there's some question as to whether he converted at all.

Check http://returntofaithofjesus.netfirms.co ... ne_no2.htm for details.
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Postby Sagefrakrobatik » Sat Aug 25, 2007 10:19 pm

Well its one thing to say that a Nazi realized his imperfection and needed to get right with God by asking for forgiveness. Its an entirely different thing to say that God only accepted the nazi's forgiveness and allowed him into heaven because he converted to Christianity. From the quote i read above i interpreted it as the former of the two unless i missed something :?
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Postby Mary » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:05 am

This is one of those things that makes me very uncomfortable with Christianity. I can't understand how so many Christians believe that it's possible for a good Jew, who loved and served God with all his heart and soul and strength, to be in hell, while murderers who claim deathbed conversion are in heaven.

It doesn't tie in with the Bible for a start - God said to Abraham that those who bless you I will bless, those who curse you, I will curse.

I've heard of alleged "death bed conversions" by nazis. I don't believe them for a minute. If God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he couldn't repent, why would He not also harden the heart of someone who cursed His "precious possession", His "nation of priests"?

I believe that Christians should accept that people who took part in the Holocaust will have died in their sins, because the moment they turned against God's chosen people they called down His curse on them. This is something that I think the Christian church has done several times in its history. For example, Luther turned against the Jews, and though I know he's held in high regard by protestant Christians, I think he cursed God's chosen people, and maybe a few folks will be surprised come the judgement.

I am sure that God fearing, God loving Jews will be in heaven, whether they believed in Jesus or not - and a lot of "Christians" will be horrified to find themselves in rather hotter water. God said that He would never forsake the Jews, and let's face it - throughout the most horrendous history, the most terrible suffering, you have remained a people, though Egypt, Babylon, the "church", and Nazis tried to prevent it.

I believe that there is a force out there that hates the Jews, and tries to destroy you. But God is greater than that... and that's why you're still here... doing God's will.
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Postby Sophiee » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:15 am

Mary, it is possible to repent and have G-d forgive you for sins against Him. However for sins against other people you must obtain forgiveness from them.

A slight correction: when Torah says G-d hardened Paro's heart it doesn't mean G-d changed Paro's heart. Rather G-d gave Paro the strength to go through with what he wanted to do -- and not give in to his fears. G-d gives us free will, and Paro used his free will -- G-d just gave him the strength to do so.
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Postby Mary » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:20 am

Sophiee wrote:Mary, it is possible to repent and have G-d forgive you for sins against Him. However for sins against other people you must obtain forgiveness from them.

A slight correction: when Torah says G-d hardened Paro's heart it doesn't mean G-d changed Paro's heart. Rather G-d gave Paro the strength to go through with what he wanted to do -- and not give in to his fears. G-d gives us free will, and Paro used his free will -- G-d just gave him the strength to do so.
Thank you! That is not something I'd ever heard before... but it does help clear up the whole "free will" thing.

I still don't think that a nazi could convert on his death bed.
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