Jewish Objections 1.10 Burn in Hell if not a Chrstian

[VenomFangX]

3. Incline your ear and come to Me, hearken and your soul shall live, and I will make for you an everlasting covenant, the dependable mercies of David. -God

Notice it is future tense, speaking of a new covenant that is from David, that is separate from the covenant given to Israel through Moses.

And you ignored all my points, so I'll make some new ones.

Haggai the prophet wrote during the time when Israel was being encouraged to rebuild the 2nd temple. Haggai said the 2nd temple would be more glorious than the first, and the desire of all nations would come to that temple, and in that temple God would give peace.

So tell me how did the glory of the 2nd temple (which is now destroyed) exceed the glory of the first one, when the first one had the glory of God present there? How did God grant peace, and bring the desire of all the nations of the Earth?

The answer; Jesus Christ.

[gse1woody]

Sophiee said "I've heard about you and your anti-Jewish rants on YouTube."

Yeah, according to one of his videos Jesus is G-d and died for us....hmmm, so G-d made himself human and allowed himself to be killed. So if he was dead how did he resurrect himself. And wouldn't this constitute suicide ?

One thing I think you will find about the people here Shawn, is that most are well educated in the Torah or are learning. Those of us that are learning do not take everything people "recite" just because they say so. Everything you say has been said before, it is nothing new and frankly is getting pretty old.

So unless you want to learn and not proselytize, take your dead man on a stick elsewhere.

[Sophiee]

VenomFangX, you need to read the forum rules because you are violating many of them -- which subjects you to banning among other things. Proselytizing is not allowed here.

But let's return to your ranting. Future tense? I take it you don't speak Hebrew? That statement just proved it.

Eternal means nothing to you? Apparently facts don't bother you.

Leviticus 26:44 "And yet for all that (rebellion), when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, destroy them, [nor] break the covenant with them, for I am HaShem, their G-d."

(Genesis 17:7) "My covenant shall be in your flesh for an *everlasting* covenant."

(Genesis 17:13) "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an *everlasting* covenant."

(Genesis 17:19) "And G-d said: 'Nay, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son; and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him for an *everlasting* covenant for his offspring after him.'"

(1 Chronicles 16:14-17) "He is the HaShem our G-d; his judgments are in all the earth. Remember His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations, which He made with Abraham, and His oath unto Isaac; and He established it unto Jacob for a statute, to Israel for an *everlasting* covenant."

(Ecclesiastics 3:14) "Whatever G-d decrees *shall be forever*; nothing shall be added to it nothing shall be taken away."

(Isaiah 40:18) "The word of the HaShem shall stand firm *forever*"

(Numbers 19:21) "and it shall be law *for all time*"

(Numbers 15:14) ". . .There shall be one law for you and for the Ger(Convert), it shall be a law *for all time* throughout the ages."

(Numbers 15:21)"You shall make a gift to the HaShem from the first yield of your baking, *throughout the ages*"

(Exodus 31:16)"The Israelites people shall keep the Shabbat, observing the Shabbat throughout the ages as a covenant *for all time.*"

(Dt 4:40) "Observe His laws and commandments, which I enjoin upon you this day, that it may go well with you and your children after you and you may live in the land that the HaShem your G-d is assigning to you *for all time.*"

(Numbers 15:23) "All that the HaShem commanded you by the hand of Moses from the day that the HaShem gave commandments and onward *throughout your generations.*"

(Exodus 12:17) "And you shall observe the (commandment of) Unleavened bread . . .you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an ordinance *forever.*"

(2 Kings 17:37) And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which He wrote for you, you shall observe to do *for evermore*; and you shall not fear other gods

Jeremiah 3:14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the L-rd, “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.”

Isaiah 54:8-10 “With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” says the L-rd, your Redeemer. “This is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. The mountains shall depart and the hills be removed, but My kindness shall not depart from you, nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,” says the L-rd, Who has mercy on you.

Jeremiah 31:35-36 Thus says the L-rd, Who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the Lord of hosts is His name: If this fixed order were ever to cease from My presence, says the L-rd, then also the offspring of Israel would cease to be a nation before Me forever. Thus says the L-rd: If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will reject all the offspring of Israel because of all they have done.

Let's just enlarge a few of those you are ignoring:

Leviticus 26:44 "And yet for all that (rebellion), when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not reject them, neither will I abhor them, destroy them, [nor] break the covenant with them, for I am HaShem, their G-d.

What was that you said about the Jews breaking the covenant so G-d just wandered away? You ignoring the very word of G-d you profess to believe.

G-d will not reject the Jews. You are enticing Jews to ignore what G-d wants and follow your false god. No thanks.

Then you ranted about Haggai. Haggai was speaking of the fact that the First Temple existed for 410 years, and the Second Temple for ten more yeras (420). The second Temple was never as holy as the first -- it didn't even have the ark of the covenant.

Glory, for your information is NOT the same as holiness.

From Jews for Judaism:

The meaning of the statement that "The glory of the latter Temple will be greater than the first" must be understood from the Torah perspective, which focuses on the ultimate purpose of creation and exile. The goal of creation is that G-dliness will be openly revealed even in the most mundane places and circumstances, as it says in Isaiah 11:9, "The earth will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as waters cover the sea," and Isaiah 40:5, "The glory of G-d will be revealed, and all flesh together will see that the mouth of G-d has spoken." This corresponds with the correct meaning of the rabbinic teaching that the "glory" of the Second Temple surpassed the First Temple in that it was physically larger, more beautiful and stood for a longer period of time. This principle indicates that more of the physical world4 was involved in revealing G-d's glory during the time of the Second Temple. After its destruction this process continues throughout the subsequent exile.

Exile serves not only to rectify our transgressions, it also facilitates our mission to reveal G-dliness in the entire world. We learn in Vayikra Rabbah 13:5 and Micah 7:15, that the Egyptian exile serves as the paradigm for all subsequent exiles. Beyond the simple meaning, the original exile contained a deeper purpose. Joseph proclaimed this in Genesis 45:7-8 by saying that G-d had a positive purpose for exiling him. In addition, G-d told Abraham in Genesis 15:13 that the Egyptian exile would affect the elevation of the material wealth of the land.

So too, all subsequent exiles have more than one purpose. In addition to exile being a method of atonement for transgression, it also serves as a means to utilize the entire physical world to proclaim and reveal G-d's presence.

None of this has anything at all to do with G-d deserting the Jews.

None of this has anything at all with Jsus being a messiah let alone a god.

You are using the typical missionary ploy of throwing a lot of sh-t against the page hoping to confuse the reader.

Since you haven't bothered to read the forum rule let me enlighten you as to the one that will probably get you banned:

What the site is NOT, is a place where non-Jews set forth their arguments for Chrstianity (or any other religion outside of Judaism) and expect Jews to answer them. This will be seen as proselytizing, and those who participate in it are subject to banning without notice by the moderator or admin. Sincere questions -- where the questioner him/herself is honestly looking for an answer, are allowed.

For example, a non-Jew may want to compare his writings to the Jewish writings to understand a different point of view. A non-Jew who is grappling with the Noahide movement may want to ask questions about being a righteous gentile outside of the Jewish faith. A Chistian, who has wondered why Jews believe what they do may want to post an honest question. An Islamic believer may want to seek answers from a Jewish point of view on something he heard about the Jews.

If you want to ask questions, do so. If you continue in this nasty proselytizing approach you won't last here much longer.

[Sophiee]

Many Xians say Jews can only find salvation through a “new covenant” or “new” testament (the GT = Greek Testament). The word testament comes from the Greek word diatheke which means both a “covenant” and a “testament”.

This “new covenant,” many Xians argue, is the covenant of the cross that was fulfilled nearly 2,000 years ago when the blood of J* was shed for the sins of mankind. Moreover, Xians insist, this new covenant was prophesied in Jeremiah 31:31:

“Behold, days are coming,” declares the L-rd, “when I will make a new covenant (bris) with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah.

The GT takes this quote from Jeremiah and distorts it saying that J* and Xianity is the “fulfillment” of Jeremiah’s prophecy:

In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)

Is the GT right? Yet, the Tanach tells us the covenant with the Jews is ETERNAL. Yet Xians would have us believe that eternal only meant until J* showed up. Salvation comes by believing in J* as high priest, sacrifice, and messiah.

In a nutshell, the GT distorts and misapplies what Jeremiah said.

Xians believe that Jeremiah 31:31-34 is a prophecy of an event that occurred nearly 2,000 years ago with J*’s death on the cross. They insist that this is the new covenant that replaced the old and decaying Mosaic covenant made with Israel that the Jews broke. Apparently G-d finally realized He’d made the rules too tough and so changed all the rules. This, BTW, even though G-d Himself said the laws WEREN’T TOO HARD TO FOLLOW:

[11] For this commandment that I command you today -- it is not hidden from you and it is not distant. [12] It is not in heaven, [for you] to say, "Who can ascend to the heaven for us and take it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform it?" [13] Nor is it across the sea, [for you] to say, "Who can cross to the other side of the sea for us and take it for us, so that we can listen to it and perform it?" [14] Rather, the matter is very near to you -- in your mouth and your heart -- to perform it. (Deuteronomy 30 Artscroll)

So are the Xians right and G-d replaced the old, because it was too hard even though G-d Himself said it WASN’T too hard?

First of all, what does a covenant mean? The Hebrew word bris (covenant) in Jeremiah 31:31 does not mean a Testament (the problem is that the Greek word has a different meaning than the Hebrew word). Bris doesn’t mean a new salvation program or bible. The word bris always refers to a promise or a contract. This covenant was made with the Jewish people while they were still in the desert before they were brought into the Holy Land. G-d made a promise to the Jews.

Would G-d get mad enough at the Jews to change His mind?

Nowhere in the Tanach does it say that.

Read Deuteronomy 28 and 29, Moses tells the Jews what will happen if they do or do not keep up their end of the covenant. Moses says if Jews turn away from the L-rd, they will be driven out of Israel into a bitter exile in the land of their enemies. He never says G-d will turn His back on the Jews. Indeed this is repeated by Isaiah and Jeremiah and it happened. The Jews were thrown out of Israel and later Judah – just as prophesied. But G-d did not say He would abandon us and indeed He said He never would abandon us.

The covenant that HaShem has with the Jewish people is eternal. No words in the Xian Bible or interpolation of the Jewish scriptures can ever change this eternal oath.

You have to read Jeremiah 31 in context and in its entirety. It IS a prophecy, and a messianic one at that. It is just that J* in no way fulfilled it.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 begins by saying the new covenant is with “House of Israel and the House of Judah.’ The Jews. The twelve tribes of Israel. Not the gentiles, not the Xians, not the Muslims, not the Hndus or Bddhists. The Jews.

Jeremiah is speaking of ALL of the Jewish people. Yet when J* supposedly lived the nation of Israel was long gone. J* didn’t return all those lost Jews to Israel – so in the very first line J* and Xianity failed to fulfill the most basic part of the prophecy! During the first Xian century there was no House of Israel in existence. It had been destroyed by Assyria more than 700 years earlier (approx. 732 BCE.). By the time of J* the Jewish people were spread throughout the Roman Empire and beyond. More than 1/3rd lived outside of Judah! Thus, even the “House of Judah” was not all in the Promised Land during the Xian century.

So J* did not usher in the “new covenant” and it is NOT a replacement of the Jewish covenant, but a renewal of it. Jeremiah’s prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. He speaks of the messianic age to be sure, but it isn’t here yet. In the messianic era both Judah and Israel will be reunited in ISRAEL (read Ezekiel 37:15-22).

So the Xians don’t have a “new” covenant. Indeed there was no time in history when the Jewish people were more fractured and dispersed than during the Xian century when, according to the author of Hebrews, Jeremiah’s prophecy of a new covenant was supposedly fulfilled.

If you just read Jeremiah 31:34 in its entirety you can see that Jeremiah is not speaking of a Xian cross 2,000 years ago but rather a restored Jewish people in the future messianic era. Read line 31:34:

No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, “Know the L-rd,” for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the L-rd; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.

Does everyone in the world KNOW HaShem?

Are there no atheists? No Muslims? No Bddhsts? No Hndus? No pagans?
If Jeremiah’s prophecy had come true then they would all worship only the one true G-d. Jeremiah goes on to say no one will have to teach his neighbor about HaShem, “for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them . . . .”

Did this occur at the time of the Xian century nearly 2,000 years ago, or at any time since? Does every human being “know the L-rd”?

Not hardly! As a matter of fact there are over 32,000 iterations of Xianity itself. The Xians themselves have different ideas of who G-d is and what He is. So Xians themselves don’t know the same “one” G-d.

The prophet Isaiah proclaimed this vow more than 2,700 years ago,
“With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” says the L-rd, your Redeemer.

“This is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. The mountains shall depart and the hills be removed, but My kindness shall not depart from you, nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,” says the L-rd, Who has mercy on you. (Isaiah 54:8-10)

Hebrews in the GT distorts Jeremiah’s true prophecy completely. Where Jeremiah says clearly that G-d will NEVER abandon the Jews, Hebrews says G-d divorced them! It is calling black white and day night.

Read Jeremiah 31:35-36:

Thus says the L-rd, Who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar-- the L-rd of hosts is His name: If this fixed order were ever to cease from My presence, says the L-rd, then also the offspring of Israel would cease to be a nation before Me forever. Thus says the L-rd: If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will reject all the offspring of Israel because of all they have done.

Has the fixed order (the heavens) ceased to exist? If not, Israel is still G-d’s son. His nation. His people.

The covenant lives.

Can the heavens be measured?

No.

Is the earth below completely explored?

No.

So G-d has not rejected all the offspring of Israel – no matter what we have done.

Jeremiah’s prophecy of an eternal Jewish covenant knocks the GT’s contention that it is “obsolete” and replaced with the Xian covenant out of the ball park.

Back when the GT was written (and modified by various scribes) very few Xians could read. They listened to their clergy – and not much has really changed today. How many Xians really read the GT AND the Tanach? How many compare and contrast? How many read Greek and Hebrew? So how many could even GUESS that the GT totally distorts Jewish prophecy? Jeremiah versus Hebrews is a classic example of GT distortion.

In Hebrews 8:9, while quoting Jeremiah 31:32, the author changed a most crucial word in the verse. The last clause of Jeremiah 31:32 reads,

. . . My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them.

Hebrews misquoted Jeremiah’s words and instead wrote, . . . because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the L-rd.”

The Hebrew word “ba’altee,” means a “husband.” It in no way can be translated as “to disregard.” The GT just totally ignores the REAL of the words of Jeremiah! To be a “husband” is the precise opposite of “disregarding” someone.

Black is white. Day is night. How can the author of Hebrews change the word of HaShem in order to demonstrate the superiority of Xianity over its older rival Judaism? When GT authors wantonly tamper with the Jewish scriptures, do they not convey the very opposite message? What happened to the commandment not to add to or subtract from Torah????

Furthermore, in contrast to the message of Hebrews 8:13, the life-giving commandments of the Torah have no expiration date. Moses declared that these commandments are forever and ever.

The secret things belong unto the L-rd our HaShem; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. (Deuteronomy 29:28 [29:29])

The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. (Psalm 111:7-8)

The Tanach makes it clear that we Jews will observe the commandments of the Torah after the messiah arrives.

And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their HaShem. (Ezekiel 11:19-20)

My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. (Ezekiel 37:24)

And many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the L-rd, to the house of the HaShem of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths,” for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the L-rd from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:3)

So let’s ask ourselves this question:

Do Xians who insist that the messiah has already come keep the commandments of HaShem? Do Xians, even so called Jews for J* or messyanics actually keep the laws of Shabbat and Kashrut?

Of course they don’t.

Yet, why don’t they if they believe the messiah has already come?

Who are those people who diligently and joyfully adhere to these life-giving commandments? The faithful remnant of the Jewish people who loudly reject the teachings of Xianity.

It would be funny if it weren’t so sad: Xians misguidedly point to Jeremiah’s new covenant to explain away that they don’t need to follow the commandments of the Torah because J* did away with them, when in fact the central messianic prophecy in the Tanach tells us that Jews will continue to follow the mitzvot after moshiach arrives.

[Emet]

Aw c'mon Venomfang, you run away with your tail between your legs already? I really wanted you to tell me what all the mentally handicapped (retarded) people who died in the Shoah did to piss off the Jman. In fact I want to know why he hates Gypsies and Communists and Blacks and Gays and Catholics and the Polish and all those other millions and millions and millions of people that weren't Jewish that died too. I REALLY want to know that.

While you're at it I also want to know why he hates amputees since not one has ever claimed to be healed ever in 2000 years.