Jewish Objections 1.03 People are born Jewish or Xian

Michael Brown of ICN Ministries, born a Jew, but turned to Chrstianity during his youth. He has written many books trying to convince Jews to become Chrstians and many missionaries quote from him.

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Jewish Objections 1.03 People are born Jewish or Xian

Postby Sophiee » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:47 pm

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From Drashi

Michael L. Brown
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From http://www.realmessiah.com/OBJgeneralPF.htm

vol. 1, pp. 6-7 wrote:Objection: 1.3. “A person is either Jewish or Christian. I’m Jewish.”

Answer: “You’re mixing apples with oranges. People are born Jewish or Gentile, but in order to become a Christian (or, Messianic) you must be born anew. This new birth comes through putting your faith in Jesus the Messiah. Your sins are forgiven, you receive a new heart, and you become a follower of the Messiah. That’s what it means to be Christian or Messianic. But no one is born Christian. That’s where the misconception lies. Nor is Christianity (or Messianic Judaism) merely another religion. Rather, it speaks of a living relationship between God and His people -- both Jews and Gentiles -- through the Messiah. Through physical birth you are either Jew or Gentile; through spiritual birth you become a follower of Jesus the Messiah.”


His objection: It is a gross misunderstanding to say that being a Jew is based on religion

His style: Half Truth

Lack of definition: "Jewish" and "Christian".

His final statement:

The ultimate question, therefore, is not whether you're Jewish or Gentile but whether you are of the Messiah or not.


From Sid Roth's web site at http://www.sidroth.org/questions_main21.htm

No, you are either Jewish, Gentile or of the Messiah. Non-Jewish (Gentile) followers of Messiah Jesus are called Christians; many Jewish believers in the Messiah prefer to be called Messianic Jews.


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Last edited by Sophiee on Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Sophiee's reply

Postby Sophiee » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:48 pm

drashi wrote:
His final statement:

The ultimate question, therefore, is not whether you're Jewish or Gentile but whether you are of the Messiah or not.




The ultimate question is whether you believe that G-d told the truth to Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and 3 million Jews who heard Him at Mount Sinai.

Or did He lie to all of them?

When He said the covenant with the Jews was eternal was He just lying?

When He said He was not a man, or the son of man was He lying?

We do not have to believe in any one person as a messiah. The messiah must prove himself to us by fulfilling the prophecies.

The question is: does G-d lie? Do we believe what G-d told us and worship only Him?

. . .or do we believe Michael Brown?
"Intelligent people know of what they speak; fools speak of what they know."

"And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice." Bereshit 21:12
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Drashi opines

Postby Sophiee » Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:48 pm

He also leaves off the definition of Christian as literally, "a devotee of a Christ". While Jew is a noun, Jewish is an adjective, just as Christian is. It applies to that which is applied to the religion of Judaism (Mirriam Webster Dictionary). Since the very foundation of Christianity is the worship of a Christ, and the very foundation of being Jewish (versus being a Jew), states that if you worship an Elohim Acharim, you have violated the entire Torah (and one who does that cannot call themselvesd Jewish), they are distinct.

He also leaves out that there is a distinction between a Christ and a Moshiach.

For example:

Attributes of a Christ (Attribute followed by the supposed page number that supports it according to Christian theology)

From a patriarchal Davidic lineage / Berashit 49:10
Born in Beit-Lechem / Micah 5:2
Born of a virgin / Isaiah 7:14
Infants will die after his birth / Jeremiah 31:15
Will move to Nazereth / No matching verse
His way will be prepared / Isaiah 40:3
Called out of Egypt / Hosea 11:1
Commissioned to begin / Isaiah 61:1
Will start ministry in Capernum / Isaiah 9:1
Will teach with illustrations / Isaiah 6:9
Will speak in parables / Tehillim 78:2
Will cure/exorcize the sick / Isaiah 53:4
Will not be believed in / Isaiah 53:1
Hated without cause / Tehillim 69:4
Will hide from Orthodox Jews / Isaiah 42:1
Will arrive on a donkey / Zechariah 9:9
Will be rejected by his people / Isaiah 53:3
One follower will be unfaithful / Tehillim 109:9
Will be betrayed by a follower / Tehillim 41:9
Fee for betrayal was 30 shekels / No matching verse
Disciples will scatter / Zechariah 13:7
Will be tried and condemned / Isaiah 53:8
Use of false witnesses / Tehillim 35:11
Silent before accusers / Isaiah 53:7
Will be beaten / Isaiah 50:6
Nailed to a stake/cross / Tehillim 22:16
Will be numbered with sinners / Isaiah 53:12
Reviled at the stake / Tehillim 22:7
Side will be pierced / Zechariah 12:10
Lots cast for garments / Tehillim 22:18
Given vinegar to drink / Tehillim 69:21
Will seem to be forsaken by G-d / Tehillim 22:1
No bones will be broken / Tehillim 34:20
Dies a sacrificial death / Isaiah 53:5
Buried with the rich / Isaiah 53:9
Raised beyond corruption / Tehillim 16:10


The above chart is by no means complete (in fact, there are many charts that various Evangelical organizations sell, only two of which I have included above), but instead is simply a list of some of the most commonly understood understandings of the fulfillment of a Christ. There are commentators who say that there are more than 200 such fulfillments, and some say more than 300, and there are some who even render that number much higher. But I have provided a short list in order to provide you with a basic understanding of the Christian perspective.

As we can see, this list defines a supernatural being with a miraculous birth, which is followed by destruction, abandonment, death, and resurrection. It is also interesting to note that without exception, every place where the prophecy (real or imagined) is mentioned as being fulfilled, without exception it is the result of interpretive, symbolic, and Midrashic use of the Jewish texts. There is not a single instance of a plain use of the original text, which is not a problem if the text using it is to be understood as a sermon that speaks in symbolic terms, as did the Jewish Midrashim that I previously noted.

What is a Moshiach?

The Jewish description of a Moshiach, however, is painted differently than that of a Christ, by taking a literal understanding of the texts. In the chart that follows, you will see a list that has not been fulfilled by anyone, literally. The lack of fulfillment, from the Jewish perspective, prohibits anyone from claiming the title of a Moshiach, for that would be like calling a candidate who is running for office “Mr. President” when he has yet to have fulfilled all of the qualifications or has been acknowledged as being elected. Again, we are speaking of the literal use, which is the Jewish form, rather than the Christian metaphorical form.

He will be of this world, an observant Jew who fears of G-d / Isaiah 11:2
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership / Isaiah 11:4
He will be the son of David / Isaiah 11:1
He will be a descendant of King Solomon / 1 Chro. 22:8-10
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will seek his guidance / Isaiah 2:4
He will be a messenger of peace / Isaiah 52:7
There will be no more hunger, illness, or death / Isaiah 25:8
Weapons of war will be destroyed / Ezekiel 39:9
Knowledge of HaShem as the One G-d will fill the world / Isaiah 11:9
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for guidance / Zechariah 8:23
All of the dead will rise again / Isaiah 26:19
Jews will have returned to their homeland / Isaiah 11:12
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness / Isaiah 51:11
The Sanhedrin will be re-established / Isaiah 1:26
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored / Ezekiel 16:55
The Temple will be rebuilt / Ezekiel 40-42
The whole world will worship the One G-d of Israel / Isaiah 2:17


When you compare the two lists, the Christ and the Moshiach, you can see some very important distinctions that you need to keep in mind.

1 -The Christian view is of a supernatural being sacrificed for the sins of the world and that he is both man and G-d at the same time, a person who is the King of kings.

2 - The Jewish view is that he will be a Torah-observant Jew who will lead Jews back to Judaism, rebuild the temple, and cause a unification of the Jewish people. While Michael Brown would like you to believe, through his weaving of a story, that Jesus was just a nice Jewish kid on a mission, it is just a story designed to divert your attention that there is a difference.

From this very distinction of what is a Christ versus what is a Moshiach, you should be able to see that the very foundation of these two theologies is built on two different platforms. Because of that, it is important to keep our terms clear, and say that while Jesus may have been a Christ, the Jewish people have been awaiting a Moshiach. And therefore, I will often be referring to him as a Christ.

When taken from a Jewish point of view, the arrival of Jesus did not fulfill the literal list of Jewish prophecies. In fact, from an interesting historical perspective, quite the opposite took place. However, when taken from a midrashic perspective, that a more supernatural form was intended and took place, and that the earthly form was intended to arrive later on, we can see why Christianity considers Jesus to have been the fulfillment of the promise, and await his return.

While Christianity has a Christ as the central ideal of it’s faith, Judaism was formed with Torah as the primary foundation, with HaShem as the sole King. Torah defines what it means to be a Jew, as well as how a Jews is expected to serve. For Christians, their various gospels tell them how to live their lives through Christ. For the Jew, one is told that if he prays to any manifestation, physical or metaphysical, real or imagines, then he ceases being Jewish. Paul wrote of this when he was speaking of what it meant to be a Jew, such as being born a Jew, being circumcised, being from a specific tribe, being Torah observant in all things (Phillipians 3:7-8)

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.


Paul said that he had to discard being Jewish in order to win a Christ.

Judaism and Christianity are two distinct faiths with different foundations and paths. It is something to keep in mind.
"Intelligent people know of what they speak; fools speak of what they know."

"And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice." Bereshit 21:12
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