Jewish Objection 1.02 Born a Jew Die a Jew

Michael Brown of ICN Ministries, born a Jew, but turned to Chrstianity during his youth. He has written many books trying to convince Jews to become Chrstians and many missionaries quote from him.

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Jewish Objection 1.02 Born a Jew Die a Jew

Postby Sophiee » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:42 pm

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Also by Drashi

Michael L. Brown
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From http://www.realmessiah.com/OBJgeneralPF.htm

vol. 1, pp. 3-6 wrote:Objection: 1.2. “I was born a Jew and I will die a Jew!”

Answer: ”You’re absolutely right! You were born a Jew, and whether you believe in Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Sigmund Freud, or Rev. Moon, you’ll always be a Jew. The question is, Will you be a faithful Jew in God’s sight? That’s what really matters. You must never forget that as a Jew you have a special calling and responsibility. Will you fulfill the purpose for which God made you? Being a Jew is no small thing. Will you live and die in right relationship with God? Will you love Him with all your heart and soul and strength? And if what we’re telling you about Jesus being the Jewish Messiah is really true (and we’re quite sure it is), will you be a faithful Jew who follows your Messiah or an unfaithful Jew who rejects him?”


His objection: declaring that a Jew who becomes Christian ceases being a Jew is incorrect.

His style: Using Rabbinic writings to prove his case and rejecting Scripture.

Undefined statements: None (he goes into great detail to prove that a Jew always remains a Jew).

He then uses this as a platform to say that since being a Jew is so important to you, and since you will not cease being a Jew no matter what you do, don't you owe it to yourself...

The foundation of his argument is "Who is a Jew"? The core of his argument can be found at:

http://www.icnministries.org/israel/jew.htm
Last edited by Sophiee on Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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My reply

Postby Sophiee » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:42 pm

Yes, you'll still be a Jew. You'll be a Jew in a lot of trouble with G-d.

An apostate Jew.

From Jews for Judaism http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handb ... stian.html :

In the Book of Kings, Elijah the prophet is sent to rebuke those Jews who were worshiping a foreign god called Baal. In I Kings 18:21, Elijah says to them, "How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is G-d, follow Him: but if Baal, follow him." In other words, you are either a Jew or a worshiper of Baal; you can't be both. The story concludes with the Jews renouncing their idolatrous ways and returning to Judaism.

From this, we derive an important lesson. A Jew who follows another religion is Jewish only to the point that he retains a spiritual obligation to repent and to return to Judaism. However, as long as his beliefs are idolatrous and foreign to Judaism, he cannot call himself a Jew. (It is important to note that a non-practicing Jew is different from a Jew who has chosen to follow a foreign path.)

The Torah teaches that Jews and non-Jews are given different paths to reach G-d. A Jew is obligated to follow the Torah, while a non-Jew must observe the Seven Laws of the Children of Noah.3 One group isn't better than the other, merely different. Therefore, certain beliefs and practices, like eating pork, are permissible for non-Jews but not for Jews. Similarly, the majority of Christian beliefs concerning G-d, salvation and the Messiah do not violate the Noahide covenant for non-Jews, but are absolutely forbidden for Jews. That is why the term "messianic Chrstian," "Christian," or "Jew for Jesus," is a contradiction.
"Intelligent people know of what they speak; fools speak of what they know."

"And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice." Bereshit 21:12
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Drashi again

Postby Sophiee » Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:43 pm

His statement is to say that even if you decide to worship Jesus, you will still be a Jew.

What is bizarre, and I mean really bizarre is that he uses the talmud (Sanhedrin 44a) to make his point. Although he does paraphrase it. Let me first show you the part in whole:

Sanhedrin 44a - Part 1 wrote:Rabbi Abba bar Zavda said 'Although it had sinned, it [remained] Israel.' Rabbi Abba said, 'This is a common saying, A myrtle that is amidst willows is still named "myrtle" and people call it thus."


This was being stated in reference to the people of Israel, even though they were aware that Achan had sinned they took no action, and thus were sinful. But they did not share in his fate, but remained Israel [there is much commentary on this].

Just a couple of lines down however, it tells us about Achan (Yoshuah 7:15) and his fate, that he had violated the entire Torah and undid his circumcision. Since he had violated the entire Torah, he was deemed worthy of death and to be cut off from the Jewish people.

According to the Rambam, one who worships and [i]Alohim Acharim has violated the entire Torah. (More about that here.) You would think, therefore that one who worshipped Jesus would be cut off from the Jewish people. But Mike Brown takes the commentary of the Maharsha (Rabbi Shmuel Edels, who lived some time later in the lat 16th and early 17th century) who ruled that even if one violates the entire Torah, he is still a Jew.

Keep in mind that a lot was happening during this period (click here for a sample, including the publication of The Jews and Their Lies). The Rabbi was addressing the problem with the Marano Jews, stating that they would still be Jews and the halacha considers that they would not need to convert.

Ok, so here is the weirdness in using this:

1) Michael Brown is indirectly stating that even if praying to Jesus is violating all of the Torah, you will still die a Jew because of the halachah.
2) The Gemara actually says that one who witnesses another's sin is part of that sin, but that person is still part of Israel while the person who does sin is cut off (killed). To use the halachah of the Maharsha who spoke of Jews who converted because of duress or because they were clueless or could care less as a proof that you can still worship Jesus is pretty amazing.

He also quotes that the Rambam says that one who does not believe in the coming of the Messiah is cut off, but he leaves off the saying of the Rambam who says that one who willingly prays to an Elohim Acharim is also cut off from the Jewish people.

And in the end, Michael Brown says (you can almost see the smirk) that although you might want to call him an apostate, your tradition says that he is still a Jew.

A final point. He takes some time to provide a proof that we are to be a ntion of priests, and that it is your Jewish duty to bring the word to the Gentiles. The word, of course, is that Jesus is the Messiah. This is, of course, a reversal of reality, for it is the Gentiles of the world who have fought and struggled so hard to being Jesus to the world while the Jewish people have continued to speak of our concept of a Moshiach that has fallen upon deaf ears.
"Intelligent people know of what they speak; fools speak of what they know."

"And everything that Sarah tells you, listen to her voice." Bereshit 21:12
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