Jewish Objections 1.01 Jews don't believe in Jsus

[Sophiee]

http://www.kosherjudaism.org/forum/imag ... f929a6.jpg
(Posted by Drashi at Jews for Judaism)

Michael L. Brown


From http://www.realmessiah.com/OBJgeneralPF.htm

Objection: 1.1. "Jews don't believe in Jesus."

Answer: “That is a serious misconception as well as a gross overstatement. Jews have always believed in Jesus. In fact, in the beginning, it was only Jews who believed in him, and today, there are probably more Jewish believers in Jesus than ever before.”

The final sentence after going into explanations:

Many of them are highly educated, and some are ordained rabbis. Jews do believe in Jesus, and their numbers are growing by leaps and bounds.

His objection: Such a statement is a gross generalization.

Style: Respond with beliefs of how things might have been and end with a gross generalization.

Undefined statements: Jew (will be addressed in 1.2), "believe in", and why such a statement is said (what is behind it).

Comments........................................

[Sophiee]

"Do Jews believe in Jesus"?

Do Jews murder?

Do Jews steal?

Do Jews participate in Wiccan (neo-pagan) ceremonies?

As a people, the answer is no.

So to use a generality either way is flawed. There are individuals and segments of Judaism who participate in things that put them outside of mainstream Judaism (which will be another one of his statements, that mainstream Judaism isn't true Judaism).

Genetically they are Jews. But is it Jewish?

[Sophiee]

In the early days of Xianity was it only the Jews who "believed" in J-sus?

Hyam Macoby gives a strong case for Paul being a non-Jew. http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby3.htm

Then there is the matter of the differences between the Jerusalem church and the Roman church of early Xianity.

While it is true that there were Jews in the Jerusalem church -- they did not worship J-sus as a man-god. They did not believe in the trinity. They were Jews who thought J-sus had been the messiah.

Fact is that the church fathers -- starting with Paul and moving right forward turned Xianity into a pagan religion with pagan rites -- to follow the man-god of Xianity is to reject Judaism.

[Sophiee]

Many of them are highly educated, and some are ordained rabbis. Jews do believe in Jesus, and their numbers are growing by leaps and bounds.

Secondly, the first sentence "Many of them are highly educated, and some are ordained rabbis" is simply an appeal to authority and is once again moot and logically fallacious.

I agree. First he claims that it is a gross generalization to say that Jews don't believe in Jesus, and then he makes a gross generalization that (1) says that Jews believe in Jesus and (2) saying that "many educated" when there are no numbers to support this and "some ordained Rabbis", without support here as well.

Now, he does use the following to support that their numbers are growning (Keep in mind that his book was written in 2000)

* 1995 publication of The Jewish Press quoting the Task force on Missionaries and Cults said "..the so-called Hebrew Christians are capturing Jewish souls at a rate never before "witnessed" in the 3500 year history of the Jewish people".

Which is a statistic that can neither be proven nor disproved, but Michael Brown desired to use this as a proof that Jews are running as fast as they can to Jesus.

He also makes an erroneous claim (by ignoring Luke, and who knows how many others) that:

It is common knowledge to both Jewish and Christian historians that all of Jesus' original followers were Jews...

Again, adding an air of authority that it is unquestionable, while ignoring that Christianity holds that there was at least one Gentile. Now, this may seem like a sticking point, but if this gross generalization, as he calls it, is a problem, he is also using it as well.

He also makes the claim that there have always been faithful Jews who have followed Jesus as the Messiah in every generation.

But he provides no supporting evidence. Where are the ancient synagogues where these Hebrew-Christians worshipped? Where is the evidence that Jews called themselves Jews and worshipped Jesus? Could it have been like Bar Kochba where after a couple of generations there were no more Jews who followed him (forget about worship), and then, many centuries later, Christianity came up with this way to cull the Jews?

While it may sound "reasonable", it is not being backed up with anything to support it.

Anectodal evidence, applying authoritative blessing, and the like. It seems to be a problem.

He also claims that there were about a quarter of a million (more or less) Jewish believers in Jesus in the year 2000. Again, while he loves to provide evidence in other areas, based on his assertion, by quoting that one article, and these base numbers, you would expect that to be at least a half million Jews or even more who follow Jesus.

In other words, he is using numbers to make it look like it is not an abberation, but a rather common and acceptable thing.

A final note, that someone else pointed to:

"believe in" is not even explained, but left as a vague statement that can be interpreted in a number of ways. He quested the Rambam that a Jew who does not believed in the coming of the Moshiach is cut off from the Jewish people. But that is not "believe in" as he has used it. He is taking a reference that contains the same two words, but in a different way, to provide evidence that it is "acceptable".

The context "Jews don't believe in Jesus" actually means "Jews don't worship Jesus", or better yet:

"The majority of Jews who have chosen a religious life have chosen to serve only G-d, and not Jesus".

This would be a better statement, because there is no generalization.

[Anonymous]

Sophiee-
While it is true that there were Jews in the Jerusalem church -- they did not worship J-sus as a man-god

Just in case Christian/Messianic think we are making this stuff up, here is something interesting from the Catholic Encyclopedia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05242c.htm

Ebionites-
By this name were designated one or more early Christian sects infected with Judaistic errors.
.....
A stage in this development is seen in St. Justin's "Dialogue with Trypho the Jew", chapter xlvii (about A. D. 140), where he speaks of two sects of Jewish Christians estranged from the Church: those who observe the Mosaic Law for themselves, but do not require observance thereof from others; and those who hold it of universal obligation
.........
St. Justin, however, does not use the term Ebionites, and when this term first occurs (about A. D. 175) it designates a distinctly heretical sect.
........
The doctrines of this sect are said by Irenaeus to be like those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They denied the Divinity and the virginal birth of Christ; they clung to the observance of the Jewish Law; they regarded St. Paul as an apostate, and used only a Gospel according to St. Matthew (Adv. Haer., I, xxvi, 2; III, xxi, 2; IV, xxxiii, 4; V, i, 3)
.......
Some Ebionites accept, but others reject, the virginal birth of Christ, though all reject His pre-existence and His Divinity. Those who accepted the virginal birth seem to have had more exalted views concerning Christ and, besides observing the Sabbath, to have kept the Sunday as a memorial of His Resurrection. The milder sort of Ebionites were probably fewer and less important than their stricter brethren, because the denial of the virgin birth was commonly attributed to all
....
They exerted only the slightest influence in the East and none at all in the West, where they were known as Symmachiani. In St. Epiphanius's time small communities seem still to have existed in some hamlets of Syria and Palestine, but they were lost in obscurity. Further east, in Babylonia and Persia, their influence is perhaps traceable amongst the Mandeans, and it is suggested by Uhlhorn and others that they may be brought into connection with the origin of Islam.

More information on this particular sect of Christianity can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites